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Mary Rosenblum
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Hi, all.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Sorry I'm late. Internet
connection issues.
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Mary Rosenblum
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But I'm here! No thunder
storms, so I guess I can stay.
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Mary Rosenblum
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I wanted to talk about
critiquing today. This is one of the best ways to improve as a writer.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Not just by getting critiques,
but by giving them.
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Mary Rosenblum
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You'll be able to see
weaknesses in someone else's work long before you can recognize those same
weaknesses in your own work
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Mary Rosenblum
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and feedback from accomplished
readers can really help you see where you are suceeding and where you need
more work.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Not all critiques are useful.
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Mary Rosenblum
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I'm sure you've all received
the family 'oh, that's nice honey' critique.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Or the equally useless 'I just
didn't like it'.
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kolanda
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Can you define
"accomplished readers"
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Mary Rosenblum
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Someone who can go beyond
'that's nice' or 'I didn't like it'. :-)
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Mary Rosenblum
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Which means you usually need
to find someone else who is writing.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Although one of my best
mystery readers isn't a writer at all, just a very avid mystery reader and
a bookstore owner.
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Mary Rosenblum
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She can tell me where my story
is weak and whether or not she figured out the whodunnit too soon and
whether my characters seem real even
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Mary Rosenblum
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if she doesn't use 'writerly
language'.
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onepozy
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Even some "writers"
will honey coat their critique
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Mary Rosenblum
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Some will, and alas, some will
be overly negative.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Let's talk about what makes a
good critique. And about the difference between thorough and negative.
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Mary Rosenblum
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A good critique tells the
writer what worked and what didn't work.
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Mary Rosenblum
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That writer needs to know
where you were confused and where you thought the character's behavior was
surprising or hard to believe.
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Mary Rosenblum
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The writer needs to know if
you were totally satisfied with the story and even if you were, what might
have jarred you briefly out of that story...
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Mary Rosenblum
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maybe a scene that didn't
quite work for you visually, a confusing action sequence, an incorrect
fact.
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Mary Rosenblum
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The writer...very
importantly...needs to know what WORKS.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Is the action really good?
Does the character seem very realistic?
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Mary Rosenblum
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Does the dialogue just flow
along?
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Mary Rosenblum
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Be sure to tell that person,
just as you can't see your own weaknesses, you can be very unaware of your
own strengths.
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kolanda
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I belong to a writers club and I
find that honey coating happens a lot
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Mary Rosenblum
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You know, Kolanda, I hate to
say it, but I wouldn't belong very long. I quit writers groups where I get
no useful feedback.
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Mary Rosenblum
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It takes up too much time to
critique others' work if you're getting nothing back in return.
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unicorn
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My "Accomplished
Reader" is my sister. She lets me know if it flows, where it drags,
which character needs improving, etc. She is blunt but honest.
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Mary Rosenblum
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That's great, unicorn! Good
for you. And your sister. :-)
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kolanda
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how do you get a writers group
on the right track with critique so everyone will benefit from the time
spent reading
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Mary Rosenblum
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Leading by example is one way.
It's nice that you don't have anybody going after work with an axe. But you
can be very tough about a critque without being negative at all.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Writers, especially new
writers with tender egos, tend to get very defensive when their work is
'attacked' by someone. :-) It makes it very tempting to
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Mary Rosenblum
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simply say nice things, but
that doesn't help anyone grow as a writer.
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Mary Rosenblum
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What you can do is to lead
with the writer's strengths. Tell the person first of all what they have
done well.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Is it a cool twist ending, a
really vivid characterization, excellent dialogue or a good dramatic arc?
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Mary Rosenblum
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Every story, no matter how
poor the writer's craft, has strong points relative to the rest.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Then mention the weaknesses
that kept the story from working well for you.
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Mary Rosenblum
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In a writers group, it's a
good idea to stick to larger issues and leave the line editing on the page
for the author to read privately later.
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Mary Rosenblum
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After you mention what worked
well for you, start with the biggest problem you see.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Did the character's actions
seem inappropriate?
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Mary Rosenblum
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Did the resolution not make
sense? DId you have a hard time following the story as it leaped from scene
to scene
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Mary Rosenblum
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or did the constant shift from
POV to POV give you problems?
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kolanda
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because copies are required for
each member, is it good to make critique notes on paper to help with new
writers feelings
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Mary Rosenblum
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Very much so. I always type a
critique letter for anyone I do a critique for laying out the critique I’ll
deliver in the group setting. That way, even if they took notes, they have
my comments in writing to refer to later on.
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quixote
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should one ignore points of
grammar or spelling?
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Mary Rosenblum
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I suggest that they are best
handled on the page. Copy edit all you want if you like to do that. :-) But
unless you see a consistent problem, I would not bring up copyediting
issues in a group forum.
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Mary Rosenblum
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If that person uses a ton of
to be verbs or lots of passive voice, mention it, but don't pick out every
example on the page. That can stretch a critique on for hours and the
writer can easily look your edits over later on his/her own.
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Mary Rosenblum
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I have to say that one of my
regular readers is a stickler for copyediting and I love her for it. I use
her critiqued copy to fix all the typos I so easily miss. :-)
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tory
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Like that idea, Mary, re not
mentioning copy editing issues. it will help our group stay on schedule.
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Mary Rosenblum
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There is a critiquing form
that is known generally as the 'Clarion Method' -- named for the Clarion
Writers Workshop.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Essentially, each person has a
set number of minutes (use a clock or stopwatch). If someone has made a
point, ditto it. Make new points or just ditto on everything and pass. The
author is not permitted to speak until all the critiques are given.
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Mary Rosenblum
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At that point, the author has
the same number of minutes as the critquer had to rebut, answer questions,
or tell everyone to go jump in the lake. 'thank you' is the preferred
response here.
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Mary Rosenblum
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That tends to keep things
moving, keep the sessions manageable in time, and prevent long back and
forth arguements about just what worked and didn't.
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kolanda
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we have two members, one cuban
and one greek with not great control of English, yet are talented writers.
How can we help them most, it is hard to read without wanting to correct
their English and the corrections would help them
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Mary Rosenblum
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Oh, by all means, I would edit
on the page, kolanda. I have a number of ESL students whose creative
talents outstrip their command of English.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Seeing those corrections is
very useful in terms of increasing their langauge skills. It is HARD to
write creatively in a non native language.
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kolanda
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love that idea as we have some
readers and critiquers who never stop talking and rehash over and over
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Mary Rosenblum
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Yeah, the silence until
afterward is a critical rule. It helps keep tempers from fraying, too.
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unicorn
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Should the writing group you
choose write the same genre as you do or should it be a mix of different
genres?
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Mary Rosenblum
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There are pros and cons to
both, unicorn. And it depends on the genre.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Anyone who's writing fiction
can comment on characterization, plot, pacing, and so forth.
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Mary Rosenblum
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I have found that at least in
SF, readers who do not read SF tend to want way more explanation than a SF
reader would tolerate. :-) And they sometimes have trouble following the
tech.
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Mary Rosenblum
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I haven't had that trouble
with mystery as much.
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kolanda
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is it better to have someone
else in the group read your writing out loud
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Mary Rosenblum
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If you have the time, that is
an EXCELLENT way to do it. I learned a lot about pacing and word flow when
I took a graduate seminar and the professor read all the submissions out
loud to preserve anonymity.
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Mary Rosenblum
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But if you have six 5000 word
stories to critique in one evening, it may not be practical.
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copper
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Where do we get a copy of the
"Clarion Method" form?
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Mary Rosenblum
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There's no form, copper. It's
just a method.
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Mary Rosenblum
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You can find the copy in this
transcript. :-) It'll be posted on the website in Writing Craft: Forum
Transcript.
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unicorn
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I write romance - inspirational
and suspense. I was just wondering if I should find the same genre or a
different genre
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Mary Rosenblum
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You should be fine, unicorn.
That's pretty universal.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Copper, I’ll also mention the
Clarion Method in this next week's newsletter, okay? In the Forum Report
section.
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kolanda
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speaking of number of words to
be read by each person...is there usually a limit per person
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Mary Rosenblum
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That depends on how you want
to set up your writers group, kolanda.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Generally, if the manuscripts
are distributed ahead of time so that people can read them at their
leisure, you can accept longer work.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Many people do write 10,000
word stories, or may want to critique a chunk of novel.
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Mary Rosenblum
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You have to decide your own
rules.
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Mary Rosenblum
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And it's a good idea to have
rules in a critique group. Interpersonal friction can happen.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Not every person who joins may
be an asset to the group.
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Mary Rosenblum
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The groups I’ve known that have
lasted the longest were generally run by a few people and had very clear
rules
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Mary Rosenblum
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about the acceptance of new
members. Usually they get to sit in on one session and listen to others get
critiqued before they can submit something
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Mary Rosenblum
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so that they're sure this is
what they want.
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kolanda
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thats the problem right now. We
have a good leader, but if he isn't there the person appointed just isn't
strong and the conversation gets way off base
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Mary Rosenblum
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That can happen. Groups form and
disband all the time when the logistics don't work well.
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quixote
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I’ve been in online groups that
have developed into a flame war :( - is it more common online?
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Mary Rosenblum
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It may be, quixote. A: it's
harder to maintain control in an online group and B; you don't have to
worry about getting punched in the face if you're really rude.
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reece
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Mary you mentioned using passive
voice before could you elaborate on what makes writing passive? and why
that isn't good writing?
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Mary Rosenblum
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Sure reece. There really is a
good reason to use active voice most of the time. :-)
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Mary Rosenblum
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In active voice, the subject
does the action of the verb: The dog ate the bone. In passive voice, the
subject does NOT do the action of the verb: The bone was eaten by the dog.
The bone didn't DO anything. Active voice is more powerful because it
translates instantly into a visual image. We see dog…eating…bone.
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Mary Rosenblum
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In our passive sentence, we
have to read to the end of the sentence and reassemble the words into the
picture. First we see bone…something is eating it, but we don't know what
yet!...finally we see a dog and only now do we reassemble those components
into the dog eating the bone
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Mary Rosenblum
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The passive voice sentence
would be: The bone was eaten by the dog.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Generally, the more rapidly
the reader 'sees' the scene the stronger your prose and the stronger the
reader engagement.
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Mary Rosenblum
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That's how you make your
reader forget that he/she is reading and wind up in the scene with the
character.
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kolanda
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could I get permission from you
to present a copy of this forum to our leader to see if we can change some
things, I don't want our group to fold
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Mary Rosenblum
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Absolutely, Kolanda. You'll
also find an article on the website: Giving and Taking Good Critiques. It
spells out a lot of what we're covering tonight.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Feel free to print off copies
for your group.
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k c morlock
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I started and stopped a group thah
became published/not published dynamic I had no idea of how to change it.
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Mary Rosenblum
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That's a group dynamic and
let's face it, groups are made up of people. They behave like people.
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Mary Rosenblum
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I've been in quite a few mixed
groups that have worked well.
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ashton
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How about one on one critiques
when you are helping out a friend? I've critiqued several and even though
they wanted an honest opinion and I used a lot of tact, I feel my opinion
wasn't at all what they wanted to hear. Suppose there's nothing you can do
if the person isn't ready to hear it. Still, is there any do's and don'ts
to one on one critiques?
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Mary Rosenblum
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Let's face it, nobody wants
anyone to find fault with their baby!
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Mary Rosenblum
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And I, as a pro, get invited
to do a lot of workshops at conferences. I am acutely aware that the novice
who winds up paired with me may have a very fragile ego
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Mary Rosenblum
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and if I'm as tough as I might
be to another pro, that poor person might not write again for months!
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Mary Rosenblum
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I'm very gentle with an unknown
quantity like that. Thorough, yes, but very gentle about how I offer
advice.
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kolanda
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in a one on one critque is it
proper to suggest changes where it doesn't appear you want to rewrite the
whole story
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Mary Rosenblum
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Yes, if changes are needed in
order to make THIS story work, suggest them.
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Mary Rosenblum
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One thing you do not want to
do is to tell that person how to rewrite this to the story you'd rather
read.
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Mary Rosenblum
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They wanted to write THIS
story. Help them make this story as strong as it can be, even if you don't
particularly care of horror or suspense or what have you.
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lanoira
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do you do critiques for others
who are not your students
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Mary Rosenblum
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I swap critiques with other
pros, lanoira, and I have some regular readers, but I can't critique for
non students. A LOT of people have asked, and it's either everybody or
nobody and I'd have NO writing time if I did everybody. :-)
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Mary Rosenblum
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You will find that most writers
conferences offer a workshop.
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Mary Rosenblum
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You'll be paired with one or
more pros, sometimes one on one and sometimes in a group with more than one
pro and several novices.
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Mary Rosenblum
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They can be very useful.
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lanoira
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so if asked you will critique
for a LRW
student
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Mary Rosenblum
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I can't, lanoira, unless
they're my student. As I said, I get asked ALL the time and I don't have
enough free time. Tor is expecting another novel. :-)
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kolanda
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I have exchanged a couple of
things with fellow LR students for critique and was very pleased with
feedback. Is that a good idea
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Mary Rosenblum
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Absolutely! This website is
fertile ground for finding critiquers.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Or visit Speck's storycrafters
and sign up for the critique sessions there.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Here you have a lot of people
who can give you more specific feedback about what does and does not work.
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Mary Rosenblum
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And critique for other people.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Belive me, you'll learn more
from struggling to figure out WHY this story doesn't work than you will
from any book on writing.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Your goal as a critiquer is to
team up with the writer to make this story really shine.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Your goal as a critiquee --
and let's talk about this for a moment -- is to listen to all that advice
and decide what is really pertinent to the story you want to tell.
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Mary Rosenblum
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When you get critiques, you'll
often get lots of conflicting advice. (if everybody says the same thing
LISTEN).
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Mary Rosenblum
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It's a good idea to take
notes, take all the critiques, and put them aside for a week or at least a
day or two.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Critiques sting. Always.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Give yourself time to get a
little distance from those comments and let your right brain work on 'em.
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Mary Rosenblum
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After a bit, you'll start to
realize that some of those comments connect up with a few nagging doubts
you had
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Mary Rosenblum
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about that story. While other
comments are WAY out in left field. Let them go.
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Mary Rosenblum
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I have one regular reader --
another SF pro -- and he doesn't get what I write to save his life. My
stories go RIGHT over his head. :-) But he has an eagle eye for action and
anything military.
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Mary Rosenblum
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I get huge benefits from that
and everything else I totally ignore.
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ashton
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This is sooo true. I was told
once I'd never sell this one story...but the other 4 people who read it
loved it! However, the advice I received from the one who hated it was
beneficial. He found some things that were eating at me as well. So I
listen to everything...good and bad.
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Mary Rosenblum
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There you go.
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Mary Rosenblum
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You'll have clearer eyes if
you wait a bit before sitting down to that revision.
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Mary Rosenblum
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And please, never assume that
just because someone has published, he/she is a good critiquer.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Not everyone who can write
well can critique well.
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Mary Rosenblum
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I saw one very promising young
novice ruin himself by trying to use every single suggestion that any
published critiquer gave him.
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Mary Rosenblum
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It simply wrecked his stories.
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Mary Rosenblum
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He was in a mixed group with
published and unpublished folk.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Most conferences try to get
pros to do the workshops who are good critiquers, but they make the
occasional mistake.
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Mary Rosenblum
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If someone tells you stuff
that simply feels wrong, hey, it's wrong. It's YOUR story.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Remember that. It is YOUR
story.
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kolanda
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I have found that happens often,
one says this is "too much", someone else says this is "too
little" confusing to say the least
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Mary Rosenblum
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All the time. That's where you
have to put everythind aside and think about it. And some people will
simply say the same thing, want the same type of story all the time.
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Mary Rosenblum
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You'll learn which critiquers
give you good input and which don't.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Well, this has been a fun
hour.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Critiquing is one of the best
things you can do for yourself as a writer...giving them and getting them.
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Mary Rosenblum
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It's how you can get reader
feedback before you're published and it helps you see your work with
clearer eyes.
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Mary Rosenblum
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I'll post this in the usual
place: Writing Craft: Forum Transcripts.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Remember, this website is a
lovely resource for other writers who might want to swap critiques!
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Mary Rosenblum
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Do join me on Sunday for our
casual chat.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Same time as this Forum. It's
a lot of fun and often quite a few folk show up.,
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Mary Rosenblum
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Have a great weekend, all!
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