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Mary Rosenblum
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Hello all.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Welcome to our Friday After
Hours Forum.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Revision is part of writing,
like it or not. :-)
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Mary Rosenblum
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So is editing.
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Mary Rosenblum
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I think we're all born hating
it...it's the toughest thing, I've found, to get young students to tackle.
The younger they are, the more resistant they are to changing things.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Or so it seems. :-)
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Mary Rosenblum
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But what I've found over my
years as a writer, starting as an aspiring writer, meeting many other
aspiring writers over the years...
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Mary Rosenblum
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some of whom went on to become
professionals, many of whom did not...
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Mary Rosenblum
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is that there sure seems to be
a clear connection between your ability to make changes and your rate of
success.
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scopexula
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Should I not have a story or
book copyrighted before submission?
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Mary Rosenblum
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Not at all, scop.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Your copyright is
automatic...as soon as you hit 'save' on your computer or as soon as you
write or type or crayon those words onto paper.
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Mary Rosenblum
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The only time a registered
copyright is helpful is if you file a copyright infringement suit against
someone.
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Mary Rosenblum
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In the real world of prose
writing, it is very very rare for someone to steal something from you.
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onepozy
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Do you revise as you go or wait
until the work is complete
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Mary Rosenblum
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I strongly recommend that you
wait until you have finished a first draft before you do major revision.
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Mary Rosenblum
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It is very easy to bog down on
a first draft, and revision is a great way to bog down.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Now that said, when I'm away
from the story for awhile...I have to do LR students, or I can't work on
the piece for a few days...
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Mary Rosenblum
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I do bo
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Mary Rosenblum
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I do go back and revise a
couple of pages before I left off.
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Mary Rosenblum
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That slips me back into the
universe of the story and I acquire the 'voice' of that particular story.
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Mary Rosenblum
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But I don't go back and revise
whole scenes three or four times before I move on.
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charie'
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Is revision story changes, and
editing more for spelling/grammar?
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Mary Rosenblum
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That's the way I define them.
As with many writing terms, there is no 'dictionary definition'.
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Mary Rosenblum
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But I have found that revising
content uses a different editorial brain than does line editing.
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Mary Rosenblum
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I, and most other writers I
know, do those functions separately.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Now that doesn't mean I won't
remove to be verbs and tighten up prose when I run across rough spots while
I'm fixing content.
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Mary Rosenblum
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But when I go to the line
editing stage where I am JUST looking at words/pacing/rhythm, then I simply
ignore content issues.
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scopexula
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Have you considered starting
your own magazine?
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Mary Rosenblum
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Oh yeah, but you know what, scopexula?
I have a number of friends who are editors for large circulation mags or
are the publisher. I KNOW how tough it is to make it work, and I really
wouldn't have any writing time if I did that.
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Mary Rosenblum
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I'd much rather write than
either edit or publish a magazine. :-)
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Mary Rosenblum
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Editors are rarely writers.
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Mary Rosenblum
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They are very different
aspects of the language arts.
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barbiq
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Which do you perfer to write,
shorts or novels?
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Mary Rosenblum
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Once upon a time I would have
said short stories. That is a TOUGH art form and I love it. But you can do
things with novel form that you cannot in a short...so I love them both
now.
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geezer
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While we are on grammar, I have
a conversation where a man makes an exclimation in Spanish Should I
punctuate it like in English, orin Spanish, or combine?
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Mary Rosenblum
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If you're using Spanish, geeze,
I would punctuate in the Spanish form, complete with the bracketing
question marks, etc.
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Mary Rosenblum
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If you're mixing Spanish words
in English sentences, then punctuate English style.
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charie'
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Do you work on
words/pacing/rhythm after your story is mostly complete or more toward the
middle of the process?
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Mary Rosenblum
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I strongly suggest that you
wait to work on the words until you are happy with the content.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Think of it as building a
piece of fine furniture.
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Mary Rosenblum
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First you cut and join the
pieces, the legs, table top, etc.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Then you plane, sand, carve
until the shape is just what you want.
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Mary Rosenblum
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THEN, you do the fine sanding,
and the seven layers of varnish. This is NOT the point at which you want to
remove a leg and put on a new one!
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Mary Rosenblum
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You'll ruin your lovely finish
job.
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barbiq
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Have you ever had a short turn
into a novel?
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Mary Rosenblum
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Yes and no, barbiq. I'm quite
good at plotting to length, so I know how long a story will be when I begin
it. BUT, I just recently had an idea for a novelette for an anthology...
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Mary Rosenblum
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I had a story under contract
for it. But it was a big idea and I decided I'd rather use it in a novel.
So I found a smaller version of the idea for the anthology.
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Mary Rosenblum
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A short story plot is really
not going to work for a novel...although some novice writers really try to
squeeze a novel plot into a short story.
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scopexula
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Has NAFTA had an impact on the
publishing industry here?
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Mary Rosenblum
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Not as far as I know, scopexula.
Publishing has always been pretty international. The international
issues...
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Mary Rosenblum
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in publishing tend to be about
piracy mostly. :-) A number of countries tend to publish work without
bothering to inform or pay the author.
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geezer
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How does one "plot to
length"?
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Mary Rosenblum
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That takes understanding how
much you'll have to include in order to get this plot down on the page, geeze.
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Mary Rosenblum
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If your plot is about a
revolutionary who overthrows the oppressive ruling regime...that is going
to take you a LOT of pages...
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Mary Rosenblum
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to set up the backstory,
develop the characters, and work out the complex interactions that will
topple the regime. That is a novel plot.
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Mary Rosenblum
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But if you want to tell a
story about a quiet teen who finally stands up to his bullying father...
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Mary Rosenblum
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that can take place on an
afternoon fishing trip and make a fine short story.
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barbiq
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Do you use the formats they give
us in the course manual?
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Mary Rosenblum
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Pretty much, barbiq. The
format in your LR manual is a standard manuscript format.
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schreiber
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How do you know when your work
is ready to send out?
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Mary Rosenblum
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Schreiber, that can be
difficult when you're just starting out.
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Mary Rosenblum
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You can be way too hard on
yourself. Or you can simply be blind to weaknesses in your prose.
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Mary Rosenblum
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The best way to know is to
find other new writers and get some people to read and critique your piece.
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Mary Rosenblum
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If they all tell you that
something is a problem, listen.
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Mary Rosenblum
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If they all say good things
about it and find different small things to comment on, you're probably
ready to send it out.
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Mary Rosenblum
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The more experience you get,
the better YOU will be at knowing when it's ready.
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schreiber
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How do YOU know when your work
is ready to send out?
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Mary Rosenblum
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Well, I have that experience.
Either a piece works and I'm satisfied with it, or it doesn't work, and I
wait until the reason it's not working pops into my brain.
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Mary Rosenblum
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But I always have several
readers read something before I send it off.
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Mary Rosenblum
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None of us are every
clear-eyed about our own work. We're WAY too close to it.
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charie'
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What is the difference between
pacing and rhythm?
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Mary Rosenblum
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Again, there is no 'dictionary
definition', but I define it as 'speed' versus 'flow'.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Pacing is making the scene
move quickly or languidly.
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Mary Rosenblum
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If your characters are
chatting and you're developing backstory, you want a languid pace.
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Mary Rosenblum
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If you're characters are
storming the castle, you certainly want a driving pace!
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Mary Rosenblum
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Rhythm is the sound of the
words, the esthetic effect.
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Mary Rosenblum
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You can created a bumpy,
choppy feel with short sentences and a lot of hard consonants.
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Mary Rosenblum
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You can create a smooth flow
with sentences of varying lengths and a 'softer' mix of hard and soft
consonants and vowels.
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Mary Rosenblum
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I often change a sentence not
because the meaning isn't quite right, but because it doesn't suit the flow
of the language in that scene.
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Mary Rosenblum
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It's more like listening to
music than correcting grammar...and that, for me, is the final 'gloss coat'
before I send my piece out.
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tory
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Last weekend at a writers con. the
workshop speaker pointed out subtle redundancies in otherwise pretty good
work. (Ex: The imp clapped her hands together.. Cal conveys hands and
together. Only need to add something if the cahracter claps something OTHER
than hands. Very enlightening. And I agreed: subtle. I'm finding many in my
novel.
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Mary Rosenblum
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This is the line editing part
of the entire revision process and it has MUCH more impact on your prose
than you realize.
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Mary Rosenblum
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You use reader expectations.
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Mary Rosenblum
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She stepped off the sidewalk,
into the street.
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Mary Rosenblum
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If she's standing on a city
sidewalk and we see the scene, where ELSE is she going to step?
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Mary Rosenblum
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She blinked her eyes.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Do you maybe blink your nose?
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Mary Rosenblum
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My very first editor taught me
a LOT about removing useless words. :-) She could take a LOT of words out of
my scenes and I couldn't tell what she had removed!
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Mary Rosenblum
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She didn't alter content at
all, but she tightened everything up.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Words are like fog.
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Mary Rosenblum
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When you have extra words that
you don't need in order for the reader to see the scene, then they cloud
that scene and dilute the pace.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Every word we have to read and
process slows down the speed with which that scene 'happens' in our minds
eye.
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Mary Rosenblum
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If the scene unrolls as we
read the prose, it comes to life for the reader.
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Mary Rosenblum
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If that reader must make a
conscious effort to translate your prose into that scene...
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Mary Rosenblum
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the story will never really
come to life. We'll always be aware that we are reading your words, not
living this story.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Now sometimes that's not an
issue.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Narrative fiction IS the
author telling the story, but even there, the narrative is less compelling
if we have to wade through extra words in order to get what the author is
saying.
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charie'
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Do you read your story aloud to
listen for the "music"?
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Mary Rosenblum
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Not as much now as I did
earlier in my career. I'm better at hearing the words in my head. I did it
a lot when I started out, frequently into a tape recorder and listened to
it.
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yem
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How can you avoid inadvertent
plagiarism?
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Mary Rosenblum
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I don't really believe that
any plagiarism is 'inadvertant'.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Yes, that's the defense that
was used recently when hot-seller turned out to be veeerrry similar to
another, previously published book.
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Mary Rosenblum
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But what else was she going to
say? Yes, I copied the book?
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Mary Rosenblum
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If you happen to use a similar
few sentences, nobody is going to sue over that, yem.
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Mary Rosenblum
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If you produce a story with extrememly
similar characters and langauge...that is an issue.
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islandclimber
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what if a "useless"
word provides that music, that rhythm?
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Mary Rosenblum
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ah, very good question,
island.
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Mary Rosenblum
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I need to remind people that
there are almost NO 'nevers' or 'always' in writing.
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Mary Rosenblum
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If a 'to be' verb or passive
voice makes that scene work...use it.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Those 'don't do this' warnings
mean that you should not do it just because it's a habit.
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Mary Rosenblum
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If it works, use it.
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Mary Rosenblum
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If it's just more convenient
to use it than to think up a stronger way to do it...think up that stronger
way.
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schreiber
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How can you tell if your POV is
wrong?
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Mary Rosenblum
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That's hard. Usually, I know
because the story simply isn't working very well. So I think about what the
other characters might have at stake...
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Mary Rosenblum
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and try someone else as POV.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Usually, the person with the
most to gain or lose is the best choice as POV.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Usually. Not always.
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Mary Rosenblum
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try using /ask in front of the
question in that send bar, yem.
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barbiq
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Can you build on a side
character from another author?
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Mary Rosenblum
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No. Not without written
permission from the author.
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Mary Rosenblum
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ALL characters created by that
author belong to him/her.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Now that said, a couple of my
minor characters have indeed found life as main characters in other
authors' work. :-)
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Mary Rosenblum
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They asked if they could use
that character, I had no intention of using that secondary again, and I
said fine.
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Mary Rosenblum
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But they did ask, and I did
give them written pernission.
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tory
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I have a scene that differes
from the following one only by a few hours time passing--no location
change, no POV change. Do I need to leave a space, or just continue and make
the time passage clear?
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Mary Rosenblum
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You can do it either way, tory.
Realize that readers are more likely to read carelessly through a written
transition in that situation and find themselves floudering a few
paragraphs later.
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Mary Rosenblum
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I would try to make that time
transition REALLY noticeable.
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Mary Rosenblum
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But either way works.
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Mary Rosenblum
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want to ask your plot question
again, yem?
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Mary Rosenblum
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It has to come up here to the
stage to show up in the transcript, and it was a good question. :-)
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yem
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What if you inadvertantly come
up with a similar plot (unknown to you)? Is that plagiarism?
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Mary Rosenblum
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Thanks. :-)
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Mary Rosenblum
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Depends.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Tons of classic fantasy
include elves, trolls, a magic evil talisman, wizards.
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Mary Rosenblum
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They're not sued by the J.R.R Tolkien
estage.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Now if they had Ents, Hobbits,
Sauron...that's different.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Copyright infringement is a
VERY fuzzy legal arena, believe me.
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Mary Rosenblum
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But Tolkien's plot of
destroying the evil talisman has been used in hundreds of fantasy books,
both before he wrote his, and since his was published.
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geezer
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I have a branch in the
storyline. One MC goes off with a conversation with a secondary character theat
takes some time. Then I want to start up (now an hour or so before) with
the other MC where the story branches. How should I handle this?
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Mary Rosenblum
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That's always hard and always
kind of awkward. I just ran into something like this in the climax of the
book I"m revising for its new publication in January.
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Mary Rosenblum
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I really DID need to visit the
various POV characters and it DID require backtracking like that.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Don't do it unless you have
to, and if you really really have to, then just try to use an identifying
event so that readers are crystal clear that they have just leaped into the
past.
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Mary Rosenblum
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I have never read an example
of that where it wasn't kind of a jolt...
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Mary Rosenblum
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but you are yanking the reader
to a halt and hurling them backward into the story.
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Mary Rosenblum
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No way around it...it's a
jolt. So you do it when the benefit of that jolt outweighs the price of
jolting the happy reader.
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Mary Rosenblum
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This is a major issue in
revision...Is it really NECESSARY to do it this way? Or could you find a
better way to do it with some more work?
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Mary Rosenblum
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Uh...have I mentioned that
writing is WORK?
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charie'
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You need a subtle way of saying
"Meanwhile, back at the ranch..."
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Mary Rosenblum
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Well, you need the subtlest
way possible while still being clear enough that your readers realize
they're back at the ranch, but yep. That's it.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Well, we're going to have to
end the Forums after one hour now, instead of stretching out into or Oregon hours. :-)
But any questions that you send up here that we don't get to...
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Mary Rosenblum
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I'll answer in the Forum
section of next week's newsletter.
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yem
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How do I type a long question on
this forum?
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Mary Rosenblum
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You need to use the regular
send bar, the one you'd use to chat in the auditorium rather than the ask a
question bar, and type /ask then a space, then your question.
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Mary Rosenblum
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That way, you can ask a long
question.
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Mary Rosenblum
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It won't work if you type ask/
The / has to come first. :-)
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Mary Rosenblum
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By the way, I've updated the
Article Index in writing craft.
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Mary Rosenblum
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You'll find a lot of links at
the top of the page and if you click on one...say 'chat rooms', you'll go
to all the articles on that topic in the list.
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Mary Rosenblum
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So you don't have to scroll
through the list looking for particular topics any more. You can just
click.
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Mary Rosenblum
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You'll find a link to all the
'help' articles for the chat rooms and the Post a Note.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Any last questions before we
end?
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Mary Rosenblum
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Do join us Sunday for our open
chat.
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Mary Rosenblum
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A lot of us get together here
to talk about everything and anything...writing, rejections, food,
whatever.
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Mary Rosenblum
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In summation on the editing
process...
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Mary Rosenblum
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I myself have found that I
tend to do a first revision that fixes structural issues, a second that
fine tunes the characterization, then I send it out to readers.
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Mary Rosenblum
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My third revision incorporates
changes from my readers, and my fourth polishes.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Well, thanks for coming all.
I'll post the transcript in the usual place: Writing Craft -- Forum
Transcript.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Have a great weekend all, and
I'll see you Sunday!
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